halloweentown: the history & hype

Being normal is vastly overrated, but this DCOM is anything but (normal or overrated). It's got great costumes, practical effects, terrible makeup, a silly story, magicmagicmagic. Reminisce with us this All Hallow's Eve as we look back on an absolute classic. 

Please rate & review and reach out to us on socials for your thoughts on this seasonal masterpiece. 

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Theme Song by Patrick Dunnevant, (https://www.youtube.com/c/AcappellaVGM)
Artwork by Dawn Wheeler (https://www.instagram.com/wool_and_stone)

Chapters

• 0:00 intro
• 4:46 background
• 12:26 cast
• 17:28 summary
• 23:50 overall thoughts
• 27:47 notes
• 45:26 awards & fun facts
• 47:32 quotes
• 51:27 final thoughts & outro

Transcript

[get home from school turn on my tv who are these friends staring right back at me now that we're older why don't you come over and go back in time with me 90s babies nostalgia]

Hi, I'm Amanda.

And I'm Jessica, and this is 90s Babies nostalgia, where two fully grown millennial women rewatch and sometimes watch the first time media from the early 2000s.

Just to be clear, we're not sponsored by nor affiliated with anything that we are talking about. Not the brands, not the production networks, not the shows, the actors, anything. We just really like talking about TV and movies. And today we were talking about the TV movie. Halloweentown. Oh, this is an absolute favorite for spooky season. So strap in everybody. But before we get into what a beloved classic this one is, I have a question for you, Jessica. for spooky season what do you think makes a good spooky show or movie

I think like to me spooky can also be like kooky or like a little bit of like weird or unnatural so I think that like because I don't love the horror side of spook I think what makes a good show is something that has something that's like a little bit different whether that be like supernatural powers or seeing ghosts or it might even be that the characters are kind of weird and act in strange ways. I think that really adds an element of like spook that I appreciate.

oh I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. And i think I think that what we're going to talk about today has a lot of it.

What do you think?

I think everything you're saying is correct. I think also there needs to be an element of feeling misunderstood. I think all of these media with like witches and witchcraft tend to be about like the outliers There's a reason that queer culture tends to like cling to villains and magical storylines. And also I think practical effects are something that I really undervalued until like right now because we recently did an episode on Beetlejuice and practical effects were a huge part of that. Also, Halloweentown, practical effects and like set designs and stuff, I think make it so cozy. And also in Agatha All Along, which is a newer Disney Plus release and has very just spooky season witch vibes, everything is a practical effect they like And it's all magic They're in a magic location and walking what is called the witches road. And they've said in interviews, nothing is green screened. like Everything was built out and they were really walking it. And that, I think, adds to the realism of the magic that makes me connect with it more. 

especially in like a today's day and age, like newer stuff where like CGI and animation and things like that tend to be favored over doing the extra work of practical effects. So it's nice when you have a newer production that still leans on the practical effects because it does assist in the world building in a more real way.

Yeah, and I think because of that first point about needing to feel like you're an outsider, that's part of what we we love so much about the kooky and the weird, as you put it, is that we feel like we can relate and maybe there's some escapism of like wanting to be like, we all want to be Marnie in Halloweentown and when you can see the world actually built out it feels the escapism is that much more real versus what I like I was this is controversial I was never a big fan of twitches because I felt like it was so heavily animated that it felt otherworldly intangible if that makes any sense

Like unrelatable, yeah.

Yeah, like there was no possibility because it was made on a computer versus Halloweentown could be a set that I could visit and could become my new home.

Yeah, totally, totally. Well, speaking of that, we are going to get into Halloweentown with some background first It was filmed in May to June 1998 in Oregon. And then it was released October 17th of 98. And it was the 4th DCOM ever which just like crazy that they like had a banger so early on, you know?

I feel like, or I mean, I don't want to shade new DCOMs at all, but definitely early DCOMs get a lot of credit for just being great. Like, wasn't Brink one of the very first ones?

Mm hmm.

And that one's also very beloved. Zenon came out around this time, very beloved. for being a channel that didn't know what they were doing at that time, they knew what they were doing.

Totally, totally. Halloweentown was directed by Dwayne Dunham, who also did other DCOMs, including the 13th year. and then he also did Ready to Run right on track in Tiger Cruise. Oh, I think these are all DCOMs.

They are all DCOMs. I love right on track.

And then he's also known for coordinating with George Lucas and David Lynch on Return of the Jedi and Blue Velvet. And it was produced by Ron Mitchell, who did Smart House.

Oh.

I know, you know, and Brian Pogue. The story and the screenplay was written by Paul Birnbaum, who has done a bunch of other writing work, but his biggest things are Halloweentown. He also wrote the sequels.

Including the fourth?

I think so, yeah.

I just was curious, not even from the whole, like, Marnie recasting standpoint, but because I think the storyline of the fourth one feels quite different to the other three.

Let's see. Nope, he did not write the fourth, so he wrote the first three.

Slay. That makes sense. So now Jess has some fun facts about how Disney got here, which I did not expect her to have done all this research. Please enjoy as I paint my nails.

Um, I found that fell down a Wikipedia hole and I'm gonna share it with you all. This is going to sound like it's not related, but I promise it's related. ABC wanted the wonderful world of Disney to return to their network because it had been airing on NBC since 1988. So they signed a deal to get rights to the wonderful world of Disney. In exchange, Walt Disney Television agreed that they would produce six movies for NBC for them. um So it was a little like a swappy deal. We give you this in return, you give us this. Then in 1991, Sherry Singer, who's the SVP of TV movies, and Steve White, who was an ex-NBC exec that went on to start his own production company, were tasked with fulfilling the NBC movie contract. And so the concept came from Steve's daughter, who said to him, Dad, where do all the creatures from Halloween go the rest of the year when it's not October 31st? which I think is like such a kid thing to say. And I feel like so many writers are constantly inspired by their children or by things that kids say.

But I'm also like, how old was this daughter? cause Was she six or was she 16? But honestly, question's valid either way.

yeah I was like, I don't think it really matters. It's still an honest question. And so with this concept, NBC greenlit the project, and they approached screenwriter Paul to write it, and the script was presented to NBC in 94, and they passed on it. They were like-

Losers! 

I know. They're like, nope, don't want it. A little fun fact here is Paul, who's the screenwriter, the kids, Marnie, Dylan and Sophie were the name of his own children.

Do you think Marnie is the one that asked the question?

Paul is the writer 

Damn it

and those are his kids names. Steve White was the exec that came up with the idea.

I knew as soon as I asked that question, I was like, I'm getting people mixed up.

Yep, yep. with NBC passing on it, Singer and White, who are now a couple, joined forces and they created Singer-White Entertainment Company, who pitched Halloweentown to Disney Channel in '97. And Disney initially passed, but then they did a movie called Under Wraps and it went really well. People loved it. And since it was so well received, they were like, you know what, actually we do want to green like this and want you guys to produce this movie.

That's crazy to me. I know Under Waps did well because it was remade in the 2010s. I've never seen Under Waps.

Me neither.

I know people like it. But to think that like that, they they passed on Halloweentown until that one did well. Like, are you crazy?

I think because they weren't sure how things were going to be received on the channel, you have to think this is the fourth DCOM, so they're still unsure. And so I think that probably gave them the push to be like, oh, this could be a success.

Bah!

But I agree, it feels crazy to pass with so many people passed on it. Like you have to think this idea came up in '91 and was not even created until '98, you know?

Ba humbug.

I know, I know. Unrelated to that story that I just told of how it came about, Halloweentown is followed by three sequels, which we briefly mentioned earlier, but it's followed by Halloweentown 2: Kalabar's Revenge, Halloweentown High, and Return to Halloweentown.

And this is not a fun fact as much as a me tangent that I had to go on because rewatching Beetlejuice and rewatching Halloweentown. I've seen Halloweentown a million times. I hadn't seen Beetlejuice as an adult. And I think another thing going into our intro conversation that makes a good spooky something is the music. The score is imperative. It has to be a little bit spooky, but it also has to be playful in order for it to hit that like, family-friendly vibe that you like in a like a spooky comedy versus a horror movie where the score is like really related to the jump scares and stuff. So the music for the two films was so similar. I thought they could be done by the same person, which I thought would be crazy. They weren't. They were, however, both done by men who were co-founders of New Wave bands, which kind of made sense. And the music for Halloweentown was done by Mark Mothersbaugh, who's the lead singer of Devo, aka the band that did Whip It, Whip It Cool with the Cones. He also did a lot of music, a lot of scores, but some notable for us. He did the theme music for Rocket Power, all of the Rugrats movies all grown up the even Stevens movie confessions of a teenage drama queen But also some adult stuff like 21 Jump Street 22 Jump Street Thor Ragnarok Which is only seven years ago can't believe that was already seven years ago like literally so much 

Wow 

and I just am always um We talked about this on pop capsule pod when we were on talking about Rugrats like I'm always so


fascinated by the people behind the scenes and how intermixed they are on all of our favorite projects of like, we were really raised by these projects made by the same half dozen people.

Well, especially in doing this podcast, that's how much I've realized that like, whenever we talk about one specific genre, it is really like, everyone is interwoven in that subset of genre. It's like a small world that's the same as you said, handful of people that do everything.

Yeah, and I do think a lot of it has to do with it being children's media, but again, he works on stuff that isn't children's media as well.

Yeah.

Also him being the lead singer of Devo is just so random.

Yeah, yeah.

Getting into our actors and main characters.

We have Marnie Piper, played by Kimberly Jane Brown. Kimberly J. Brown, not Jane. Don't know where that came from. She is our main protagonist. She's 13 year old witch of the Cromwell family. which she doesn't know when the movie starts. She apparently only read for this role twice. Slay. And honestly, it was made for her. So her career kicked off with roles on Guiding Light, which she got an Emmy nom for her role as Mariah Lewis. And after Halloweentown, she was in the DCOM quints. She was in a 2002 Hallmark movie of My Sister's Keeper, which I did not know existed. She had a very small role in that. 

Then we have Dylan Piper played by Joey Zimmerman. He's the 12 year old brother to Marnie and Sophie. Amanda wrote the squariest square that ever did square and he is definitely like that goody two shoes kid. He's the one who like doesn't want them to have any fun and is kind of a tattletale and like just like not down for a joke, you know?

Yeah, yeah, he is. He's something. Oh, also Marnie is the namesake of my cat.

Mhmm.

Sophie Piper is the youngest, she's seven, and she's just starting to exhibit some little powers, though she doesn't know what that is. And she's played by Emily Roeske, Roeske, Roeske. I don't know how to pronounce, but I know she's on TikTok, she's pregnant, and she makes jokes about being the little girl from Halloweentown now having a little girl.

Weird. she hasn't really gone on to do much else. So that's interesting. She's on TikTok.

Everyone is.

True, true. Then we have Gwendolyn Gwen Piper, played by Judith Hoag. She's the protective mother of her three Piper children, and she's also a witch, though no longer practicing. Besides for this series, she's known for playing April O'Neill in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the 90s movie, um as well as Cindy Dutton Price in Big Love, Tandy Hampton in Nashville, and Stephanie Quinn in The Magicians.

And then, of course, we have Splendora Agatha Aggie Cromwell, aka Grandma, played by Debbie Reynolds, one of Hollywood's legends. She's a witch from Halloweentown. She's the Piper's grandmother, and she comes to visit on Halloween and plants some seeds for them. She was apparently the first actress cast in this film. No one else was considered for this role. And that makes sense. If you get Debbie Reynolds to say yes, why would you consider anyone else?

true. She's literally an icon of the 50s and 60s. Her breakout role was Kathy Selden in Singing in the Rain, but she's known for So So So Much, but also known for The Affairs of Dobie Gillis, Susan Sleptier, Bundle of Joy, which she received a Golden Globe nom for The Caterd Affair, like so much voice of Charlotte and the Charlotte's Web. She also has TV credits, including Roseanne and Will and Grace. Rugrats, Kim Possible, like an icon.

also mother to Carrie Fisher, both of whom passed within like a week of each other, which is crazy. Then we have Luke, who is played by Philip Van Dyke. Wow, that's a name if I've ever heard one. It's giving Mary Poppins. He is a 13-year-old goblin who's recently had a nose job and is helping out the bad guy in this one and is such a wiener. 

He is a wiener, but that's hilarious.

He voiced Arnold Shortman in season 2 and 3 of Hey Arnold!, and this is me learning for the first time that Arnold has a last name and it being Shortman is really rude.

Fair, fair. Then we have Kalabar, played by Robin Thomas, who's the main antagonist and he's the mayor of Halloweentown. he is played oh he 

Has played 

He has played Mark Singleton on Another World and Jeffrey Wells on Who's the Boss. He also had recurring roles on 90210 and Switched at Birth. Also like he might be on one episode of every show that's ever made.

Oh, is he like the Even Stevens dad? He's just like everywhere.

Yeah, like his credits were so long, but they were all like one episode. So I was like, I'm not gonna mention if he's just on one episode, but like literally of every show ever made.

Honestly, respect a working actor.

20:30.43
Jess
Yeah, dude, get that bag. Like it's fine with me.

He also kind of looks like Alex from Lewberger.

He really does. Very specific reference, but yes.

If you know, you know.

Yeah I have a feeling most people don't know, but I know. it's Halloween, all the Piper children are forced to stay indoors because Gwen is like no Halloween, no fun here, witches are evil, stay inside. Then the grandma shows up, Grandma Aggie, they're all so excited to see her because they only see her once a year and she tells them a bedtime story about Halloweentown and gives them a book and loosely the witch in the book looks like Marnie even though no it doesn't It just looks like a generic girl, but all the kids think it looks like her. So we go with it. she has to head home, but before she heads home, she is talking to her daughter in the kitchen. It's like, hey, things are going kind of awry in Halloweentown. I think I need another Cromwell witch. Like bad stuff is about to happen and I really need your help. And while this is happening, Marnie is sneaking on the stairs overhearing all of this and hears that she has powers and that if she doesn't start practicing to be a witch by this evening, the 13th Halloween, she's going to lose all of her powers. So when Grandma Aggie leaves, Marnie and Dylan sneak out of the house and follow her and they get on the bus to Halloweentown and surprise surprise so does Sophie because she was pretending to be asleep. So now all the kids are in Halloweentown without their mom and Grandma does not know that they're there.

Once they're in town, they run into the Mayor Kalabar. And he calls the taxi driven by Benny, who's a skeleton, and a little crazy to take them to grandma's house. How grandma already got to her house so quickly, I don't know. The gate is locked, but Sophie, who has been exhibiting some little powers, is able to open it by wishing that it opened.

No she-

Well wishing that it would turn into a frog yes and once they're inside the house grandma aggy is like so we should return you and they're like but we could help and she's like.


You know what? You're right. You can stay. Here's what I'm doing. I need to light this talisman and she uses like a Betty Crocker cake mix in a microwave to try to light the talisman and it doesn't work. And she's like, you know what? Nothing's as good as baking from scratch. So, which is true. So now they need to like go on this little hunt. So they go into town. Meanwhile, Gwen realizes none of her kids are home and she's peeved and goes to Halloweentown to get them back.

While they're going into town, Grandma Aggie approaches Kalabar and is like, dude, people in town are becoming a little deranged and some of them are even disappearing altogether. And I'm really concerned like this keeps happening. And he kind of just brushes her off and it's like, wait two days, which I'm like, why do you trust this guy?

Gaslight.

Yeah. Gwen shows up in Halloweentown. She tries to get the kids to come home, but the bus won't be there for a few more hours so while all of this is happening, Gwen opens up about hiding her powers from Marnie. Marnie's upset about this, and they all wander into the movie theaters in town because they're following Luke. And all, what?

Sorry, they don't wander. Luke leads them. 

Fair.

He says the guy wants to talk to you.

Yes, yes, that is true. 

They're just like wandering around Halloweentown and they're like, that looks new. Let's go in there. I wonder what they're playing. 

Yeah. Well, it's all like boarded up and stuff too. Yeah, so he leads them into the movie theater and all the missing people from town are frozen in their seats. So this kind of like verifies Aggie's suspicions about what's going on. And then an evil figure appears from the theater screen and freezes both Gwen and Aggie. So the kids leave and the monster disappears. First they kind of like drown him out with the light because he's like allergic to light. And then they leave. they now are on a mission they're like we gotta to save Halloweentown we gotta save our mom and grandma we gotta relight the talisman but we need to make the witch's brew first so they go on an adventure to collect all of the ingredients and once they have all of the ingredients marnie realizes that she does not remember the spell but guess who does miss sophie because of course she does so they do it together and they relight the talisman

But then they don't know where to put it. So they go to the theater and just like wave it in front of their petrified grandma's face and it does nothing. And then Marnie's like, what did grandma say? Mortal see mortal do. ah We got to put the candle in the pumpkin because there's a big pumpkin in the middle of the square that's been looking like it's not lit and smoke's coming out of it. And so she realizes that's where she got to put the the talisman. but luke pops up and he's like marnie it's a trap don't do it he's gonna get you and so they come up with a little plan where Kalabar reveals himself to the whole town mid speech by the way he's he's doing his thing he's like guys we gotta rise up we've been secluded to the second rate world when we should have it all and she's kind of winning the people over i gotta to say they're kind of with it And Luke puts on the cloak that Marnie was wearing, it was her grandma's, and like walks through the crowd so that Kalabar strikes him while she's hanging from the top of the pumpkin, putting the talisman in. She gets hit, but then drops the talisman and it flips and lands just perfectly in the middle of the pumpkin and it lights up and everyone's happy. And Kalabar's like, blehhh that was my impression of him, so don't judge me. I always forget that there's more to the plot after that point. Oh right, he grabs so so Aggie mom everyone in the movie theater wake up. But then he somehow summons the talisman out of the pumpkin and is like, ha ha ha you Cromwells suck and then they all hold hands and chant together to retrieve the talisman from him while he just stands there doing nothing waiting for them to succeed and then they succeed they get the talisman from him and he like becomes a light and and explodes yeah and then um they decide that since the kids know about magic now grandma's gonna come live with them and grandma and gwen are gonna train marnie to be a witch

Yep. Halloweentown folks, it's great.

Can you guys tell that I wasn't reading the summary that Jess so politely wrote out because I know so much of it and I just rewatched it but I also at times got lost because I did a little bit because genuinely as many times as I've seen this I forget every time that there's more after she puts the talisman in the pumpkin.

Yeah, there's like a whole nother 20 minutes I wanna say. It's like a good chunk after that happens.

Yeah but it's kind of like why?

Agreed.

yeah. Anyway, overall thoughts. It's just such a cozy movie. It's so good. It's so cozy.

So cozy, so wholesome, so family friendly, but also has a lot of like elements of Halloween that it's like, truly, I get as much joy watching it now as an adult as I did watching it growing up.

Agreed. It's never not brought me joy. I also learned this time watching it around that I can quote most of it. I'm not that surprised. I have a good brain for words, but I was watching it casually last night and I was saying lines before they happened on the screen.

I definitely cannot quote it as well as you. I'm aware, like I know it very well. I've seen it at least a dozen times, probably a couple dozen, but I cannot quote it word for word.

I didn't mean to. It was just like, oh, hey, I think I know what they're going to say next. Like it wasn't even all of the like big quotable moments. It was just like, I knew the lines that were coming, which was kind of crazy. But there were also some lines that I hadn't heard before, which was interesting.

Yeah.

It's definitely that kind of movie that like it's well written.

Oh yeah. The biggest shock to me was in my brain I associate Benny as a main character. He's not really a main character at all. He's in the movie for all of five minutes.

I will say he's probably a breakout character, if you can call one that in a DCOM, because he has a larger role in the second movie.

Mmm

And most of the characters that we see in Halloweentown in the first one don't return Only Luke and Benny do, and he has a substantial role in that one.

Yeah, which makes sense. We deserve more Benny.

We do. He's funny. He's also terrifying when he's under the spell.

Yeah, he's creepy as hell.

I just think that like the way that I said that it's cozy it's something about the way the Movies were shot in the 90s like the slightly lower tech plus this is a DCOM. So the budget was crap. it's like softer and then like the lighting was very warm and also the practical sets like I mentioned like it just feels very- There's something about modern kooky witchcraft stuff that isn't as cozy as the stuff of the late 90s and early aughts because of the tech being so much better now and the coloring being different. you know i I liken this to practical magic in that way that it feels like fall even without the premise.

Yeah, it's also the setting like you can tell they filmed in Oregon. Oregon was a good choice. Guess how much the budget was because you brought up budget and I looked it up.

definitely not more than 30, but I'm guessing like

Way lower

I don't know, like five mil.

4-mil.

Yeah. Makes sense.

Yeah, but pretty impressive, product for 4-mil. Like...

But also some of these, I think it's in my notes, some of those practical effects are not great. Like it's, that's the one thing I didn't notice as a kid that I did as an adult when I, cause I watch this every year, it's not Halloween without watching it, is like some of these characters are literally in the most dumb party city costumes and face paint.

yeah and some of them i'm like that's not even a monster 

No

like i don't know what that is someone just made it up but it's like not a monster that exists like 

Mhmm mhmm mhmm 

getting into as we kind of naturally transition but now we're going to talk about like things we have to talk about some of our favorite moments maybe some of our least favorite moments

Details.

yeah, I thought it was cute that Gwen and all the kids' dads met on Halloween because I'm like, oh, this makes sense.

She was a witch. She came from Halloweentown to

When the portal was open

when the portal was open, met the love of her life, chose to stay there. It's all very cute. Then also I'm like, you would think that the day that you met, you would like love and enjoy and want to celebrate, but instead you like shield your kids from it.

I Guess cuz also the portals open and she wants to shield her kids from Halloweentown and witchcraft 

Yep

Which I kind of get

Yeah.

But I also am like, so is 100 years passing every time for Aggie before she sees her kids or grandkids?

Yeah, she does say like time works different.

Yeah, and there's in the second one, Marnie almost gets trapped in Halloweentown and she says it it'll feel like 100 years for her, if she does.

Yeah

That's crazy 

that is crazy.

I mean, Aggie's older than that. she's She knew King Arthur and stuff

Yeah

but still, it's, I don't know, it's confusing. um It is cute that they met on Halloween and it makes sense. I really love and have always adored the fact that the kids act as if this picture book lends any bit of legitimacy to the story of Halloweentown. Because like, Squary is square- square pants, McSquarePants, Dylan, is like, whoa, it's a book when Grandma Aggie is telling the story of Halloweentown, and it's a picture book. It is a children's picture book.

Yes, I completely agree. Also, I know I already mentioned it, but when they're like, and the witch in here looks like Marnie, and I'm like, it really doesn't.

But you know that they made it, like they made the book for the movie, so the witch is designed to look like Marnie, but it also just looks like any generic white girl with brown hair and bangs.

Exactly.

I think one of the things that makes this movie so charming is all of the little details that they put in related to magic and so much of their stuff feels like, this is a choice, why not?

And one of the great bits is we see Gwen eating the Halloween candy and watching infomercials and that classic line from infomercials where they say like, works just like magic. And she's like commenting on whether or not stuff actually works like magic.

Yeah, yeah.

I enjoy it every time.

While Marnie is getting ready to seek like sneak out, Gwen is in the kitchen like and I don't know washing something at the sink, and she walks straight past the kitchen to the front door and sneaks out the front door, and I'm like, is there no other doors in this house? like That is ballsy as hell.

Also, we learned in the third Halloweentown, Halloweentown High, that Gwen has eyes in the back of her head, so I really don't know how she got away with that.

Oh, that's plot hole. Whenever we get to that one.

That's what I'm saying.

Plot hole. That doesn't make any sense.

I've always enjoyed that, like, detail in the third one. It's cute, but literally since it came out, i it has irked me.

Yeah, it doesn't it does not match up. also we mentioned in the summary about Aggie microwaving the witches brew. She's like, I shouldn't have used instant. It was just very, I love the elements of like human things that they bring into the Halloweentown world. I think that's what makes it so much fun to watch as a kid. and then as an adult, the jokes even hit a little bit harder too.

Yeah, I agree and I think that it's charming and it's part of the escapism but like grounding it to have it exist in the same time period more or less. I like when witchcraft and our tech kind of overlap because then like the internet becomes a big deal in the second one because that's when kids teens started being on the internet, you know, it's just it's silly and it feels more relatable.

Mm-hmm. Also early on in the movie, I think when she's asking Kalabar, like mentioning to Kalabar, that all the townspeople are like going deranged and some of them are straight up going missing and she's concerned, she admits to having Merlin's talisman and Like I get at this point, she sees caliber as the mayor as someone she can trust and who is passionate about the town. But also, I just don't know why you admit to anyone that you have Merlin's talisman. That just feels like a secret.

I don't know why anyone thinks that anyone other than Aggie Cromwell would have Merlin's talisman.

Well, that's true. Maybe it's just known. Aggie also has a bad habit of this of the second one like her spell books are missing and like he already got them decades ago and she didn't notice like I feel like Aggie's just been alive for so long she's like losing track of how important things actually are and is just like it'll work out I'll fix it 

Yeah

but I agree it feels like a big secret I also didn't write this down but related to that And how the characters are like she says they're going mean and then they're disappearing why didn't that happen to her and and and Gwen they just Became frozen and there were frozen people in the theater but then we saw the other people first were mean and then frozen and I don't know is it a different spell am I confused

I guess I assumed that the spell that made them go like a little deranged and mean is the spell that lured them into the theater and then once they were in the theater, he would freeze them.

So he's spelling them twice.

but because Aggie and Gwen were already in the theater, he had to just freeze them. But none of this is like backed up by the plot. That is just what I thought.

No, that's a theory I've never had.

Yeah.

Marnie's sass level in this always in all three films, but especially in the first one, Marnie's sass level is off the charts. And also talking about this has re affirmed why my cat is named after this character 

Yes 

because never trust a Marnie to not have sass and invade your privacy.

So true

she's so sassy to her mom in a way that a lot of kids wouldn't get away with but it is very relatable when you're a kid watching it and being like she gets to say all the stuff that I wish I could say

Yeah, she's also 13, so I'm like, I don't know, kind of checks out. I feel like she has 13 year old, teenage, sass.

Yeah, absolutely. But then she also has sass towards everyone else too, which is fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she does.

the scavenger hunt part is definitely the most fun to me of the movie. It's the part that I remember the most. when they're getting the ingredients, do you know, do you agree?

Yes. Yeah I do think I think when I think Halloweentown I mostly think the end scene and the movie theater scene because obviously those are big climax points. However besides for that yes I think the fun like adventure part of it is not really them getting to Halloweentown it's the adventure that the three kids go on to to like get a tear from a ghost and a hair from a werewolf and all these things and they have to do kind of funny things to get them and it's very enjoyable.

It is and you know what's funny is I think I've just never liked Kalabar. I didn't like him as a kid. I don't like him now. I don't find him scary. I find him annoying and also don't like I don't know. There's something about the way he looks. It just like bothers me fundamentally. So I don't even think of the plot. I think of those scenes. I think they're fun world building scenes where we get the werewolf who's a hairstylist and we get the tooth fairy is a dentist and we get that weird aerobics class. And like, you know, it's just it's fun. And that's the fun of Halloweentown to me is Halloweentown.

Yep.

that leads into my other note of like every choice of character and detail feels like well Why not which is part of the charm, but like the aerobics class Always takes me out because I again as a kid did not realize But they are literally just wearing face paint. They're literally just wearing cat and dog face paint and body suits.

there's also the secretary to Kalabar who is dressed as a pin cushion and is like, I'm on pins and needles.

Yes.

Very cute. Very fun. Just a random ass choice. That's not why not. That's a why not.

But that was one of those that made me feel like these are not monsters. Like what is that woman? She's not a monster. She's just a pincushion. So why is she in Halloweentown if she is not technically part of the people who should be in Halloweentown? She's just wearing a costume dressed as a pincushion.

Well, I don't think Halloweentown is exclusively for monsters. It's for anyone that's non-mortal.

Sure, I guess I'm including like with everyone under monsters, but yes she could be non-mortal, but it's just weird.

She's non-mortal because she's a pin cushion.

It's implied that that's not a costume. That's who she is. It's a way of life.

Yeah, it is who she is.

It's It's so dumb. There's also in the final scene, there's a million extras in costumes. One of them is just straight up dressed as Marie Antoinette.

Just like a French powder wig and all that. The one choice that we maybe didn't need... But I understand why it was there is the the guys that run the bus ticket counter because it's two conjoined twins, which like are a real thing. Conjoined twins exist and they partook in freak shows or were, you know, along with like smaller, like little people and all of that and obese people or the bearded lady. like Those were all real people who then were part of freak shows and I think that that's how they get included into the label of like magical kooky. But it is it does feel a little non-PC, I guess. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think it's a fine line because like erasure from media of disabled people is a problem. But then also the inclusion in media in roles like this also is a problem.

And being conjoined is the joke for them.

yeah 

Like all of their banter, all of the jokes is about that. And they, like that's a real condition that people are born with.

yeah

I don't know. I guess the way that they're, it's so comedic and kooky, the way that the bus people are that I like, I probably wouldn't have even noticed or cared if I hadn't seen it in the ant farm episode recently. But how do you feel about them? Like, do they bother? Like, is that something you picked up on that bothered you at all? Or are you just like, yeah. yeah

No, it's not something I explicitly picked up on. I think that if... it was a little person or if it was someone with some other mobility disorder that I maybe uniquely feel more connected to because of my mobility disorder I would have found it more offensive, um but since I'm a slightly, you know, I'm more disconnected from that, I also find them funny, but it it does go into question of like, why do we find that funny? And is that proper representation? And there are some definite like flaws and issues with the inclusion of those characters and that being their only personality trait. Now, I think that if they had other personality traits, outside of being conjoined, then the inclusion of them probably could be more justified.

If you guys would like to learn more about conjoined twins, a big part of why I maybe thought about this more than jess did is because when I was on TikTok more actively a couple of years ago, I watched a lot of Carmen and Lupita, who are a couple of conjoined twins who talk about what it's like to be conjoined and their experiences and in addition to their lives.

Cool. I have problems. So Marnie gets the Talisman and she climbs up the giant pumpkin and she has limited time because Kalibar is like on to her. And she lifts open the stem and like pulls it off and then just like pulls off like a toy. And then she's trying to crawl in to drop the talisman in. But this pumpkin is so giant that she could have just climbed through the mouth hole.

I don't have a reason for you. I saw this note while I was watching the movie. I was taking notes in the doc and I thought that maybe I could find an answer and I can't other than the whole mortal see mortal do thing. And like when we have a small pumpkin, we put it in from the top, but I agree it is.

But we put it in for through the top because the hole is not big. If the mouth hole was big enough, we would just stick the candle in through that, I feel.

And I understand your logic and you're not wrong. That's just the only reason I could come up with. Or that like the face is scary cause smoke is coming out. Or that the face was facing him and she was trying to sneak up from behind.

Behind.

yeah, that's all I could think of.

Okay.

But it is unnecessary. But if she had gone through the front, we wouldn't get that dramatic ass talisman flip. which I have always thought was so funny.

True, true.

is it just a big coincidence? This is something I just realized in this watch through. Is it just a big coincidence Like the biggest coincidence ever that Gwen just happens to show up in Halloweentown for the first time in forever on the same Halloween that Kalabar is enacting his plan that's based on apparently getting his feelings hurt when she chose a mortal over him?

Yeah, I think it has to be because he seemingly is not part of the plot at all to get her back to Halloweentown. Like that is entirely the kids doing. So it's coincidence that she shows up. But you would think if your entire motivation for doing something like evil is one person, you would want them to be there to witness that.

her being there is an effect of his. He caused that because Marnie wouldn't have overheard them talking if Aggie hadn't been saying this shit's going weird in Halloweentown,

sure 

which was because of him. So it is his fault that she's there, but it is also like not something he planned for. It's just a coincidence.

Yeah, I do think it is just a giant coincidence, which is also why I don't love that that's his reasoning.

It feels so small, doesn't it? 

Yeah

It feels so, for you to want to take over an entire world just because someone chose a mortal over you 

Yeah

in what your life has been like 1300 years ago.

Mm-hmm.

Are you kidding me? This is why I never trust a man.

Mm-hmm.

Never.

ah hard left. I've always felt robbed of a potential storyline about Dylan's powers.

Because we never get one, not even in the follow-ups.

No. In this one

Rude 

he gets little sparky hands and he's like, it was probably just like that Aurora Borealis thing I was learning about. And I'm like, dude, you know that that is not in any way. You're so, that is the dumbest thing you possibly could have said. That is, that is a natural wonder. Anyway, but we see him have little magic-y powers. he does have, he uses a little bit of magic in the second one where he says, I'm not a warlock, but they need his help with something again. I don't think he uses any in the third one. And then in the fourth one, he goes to which U with Marnie, like they go to university in Halloweentown.

Together.

because Marnie gets in and and his mom is like Dylan needs to go with you to supervise or something, as if they're the same age also, which I don't think they are.

No, they're a year apart.

And I don't even think he uses magic at witch u.

Huh.

And I always felt like that would be a really fun storyline, is like the kid that's like afraid of being mad of having magic actually having it.

They also, they set it up in this movie because at the end, when Kalibar steals the Talisman out of the pumpkin and they're trying to get it back, all the Cromwell witches are like holding hands together using their powers powers and they're like, we don't have enough and Dylan joins them and that's when they're able to get it back. So they set it up like he's this vital part of the Cromwell family and that he's going to be this big warlock. So that is very disappointing that we don't get anything like structured.

Yeah, I've always taken that to mean that he was just a little bit like just enough to tip them over the edge, but it could have been like you you're saying a great warlock. Now, do we want to take away from Marnie? Maybe not. Have I always thought Marnie could have been the weakest link? Absolutely. Sophie's storyline is another one that I have felt robbed of forever, but I digress.

Mm hmm.

ah The fact that Dylan has little sparky powers in this one and like never again

Weird.

I love it and I hate it. My last little note about the actual movie is that, did you notice in the final scene, they're talking for like three minutes about whether or not Aggie's going to move with them. And there's like 50 extras all just stood around them listening to their conversation.

Honestly, I blame whatever like producer or assistant director was on stage ah on set that day.

I know, but they're, they're all, they're not even like casually loitering. No, they're all huddled around the Cromwells.

Listening, yeah.

I'm like, bro, so nosy.

Fun facts. I just have a couple things. This isn't really a fun fact, but I always put like awards and accolades under the fun facts section. Don't ask me why. It's just something I do. Kimberly J. Brown was nominated for best performance in a TV movie leading young actress at the 20th Youth and Film Awards for her performance in Halloweentown. and the original ending was Marnie had to travel deep into an enchanted forest to place the talisman and the further into the forest she got she continued to age and so the makeup department had to make a life mask to make different prosthetics to show her aging, but then the ending was rewritten and I just feel bad for the makeup department. That sounds like so much work and effort for them to be like, o just kidding. like Instead, they're all going to defeat Kalabar and we're sticking the talisman in the pumpkin like

That's also crazy. Like when I read this note, I could not believe that that was the original ending. That is a different movie.

Yes, it is. And I don't think it would have like set up the sequels as well.

That's what I'm guessing is why they scrapped it because if she's aging, then it's harder to film a sequel.

Yeah.

I'm glad they didn't do that, but I also like really deeply need to see it.

Yeah, like an alternative ending cut. Yeah.

Yes. Where's the deleted footage guys? 

Yeah 

I also just like, this is like a commonly known fun fact If you're into Halloweentown, Kimberly J. Brown has the actual picture book that that that Grandma Aggie uses to read to them and also makes pretty much annual trips to the town where this was filmed to celebrate in the fall, which is just very cute.

It is cute.

she's a big supporter of of the franchise still. And I love that.

As she should be.

Yeah, you can tell she's really proud of it. Quotes. So ah when I saw you wrote this one down, Jess, I was like, of course, of course.

Sophie has this point where at the beginning of the movie, she's sitting on the couch and Gwen is like, no, you cannot have a cookie until dinner, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, I want that cookie. I really want that cookie. And then the cookie levitates over to her, but then Gwen snatches it out of the air. And I just have to say that would be a very useful power to have.

Mm hmm.

Like I want to be able to go places. Like when we were in Disneyland, if I could just wish that I wanted something and it levitate into my hands, that would have been nice.

Yeah. When I read this, I was thinking I'm on a couch right now and I wish that I had a cookie and I don't have any cookies in my apartment. And what if I could just wish that I had a cookie and it could levitate from one of the grocery stores down the street 

Yeah, or even from your next door neighbor, maybe they have too many.

Or, you know, there's a cafe on the first floor that loves to do baked goods. And they're overpriced, so they can they can give me a cookie.

Mhmm.

At the beginning, there is the obvious Halloween is cool line, but also Marnie has a great line of, nobody around here really appreciates my taste in weird stuff.

Mhmm.

Which like, she's so much not that, not like other girls, it's just hilarious.

Yeah, yeah.

Classic line from Grandma Aggie. Being normal is vastly overrated.

I don't remember.

Marnie says this to Luke.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

He says like, I'm something of a big cheese around here.

Yes. Yes. When he's trying to like talk her

Ask her out

yeah, ask her out and kind of like get her interested. she goes, you know, I was kind of hungry, but then I smelled something stinky. Maybe it was the big cheese.

yeah like i said so much sass 

Mhmm

uh-huh 

I love it though 

in that same scene this is when again another like costumes were like that's a choice the guy that sells brooms is just like an elvis impersonator skeleton i don't i've never understood why

Yeah, but I kind of love him 

Yeah, and when Luke walks off he goes, that Luke dude, he's turned into such a wiener.

yeah

Which is just like really fun and really dumb.

It's really fun and really dumb, but also like should adults be making those sort of jokes about kids?

But I feel like calling someone a wiener, especially a weenie, is like harmless 

Fair

as a kid because we think of, I don't think of like a d*ck, I think of like ah a hot dog when I was a kid at least. I thought a weenie was like a baby. Also, just a fun fact about us is that Jess needed to rewatch Halloweentown. I did rewatch Halloweentown, but I had said many times I probably could do this without rewatching because I thought maybe I just watch for the quotes. And then I remembered that Luke dude, he's turned into such a wiener off the top of my head without rewatching. And then the great line from Miss Grandma Aggie, magic is really very simple. All you have to do is want something and let yourself have it. 

Mhmm

Which is why Sophie got that cookie.

It is why she got that cookie.

I feel like that's really the the crux, too, of why this movie's so good is the idea that all you have to really do is like really want something and let yourself have it, and that being the basis of magic is very wholesome.

I was gonna say it feels like that statement is very much like likened to what a lot of like life coaches and spiritual life leaders kind of instruct you in terms of manifestation right like that's the whole root of what manifestation is 

Mhmm

you want something and you let yourself have it obviously there's more involved but like in general that's what it is

Yeah, it is the same concept.

Yeah.

Do you have any other thoughts, Jess?

No, I love this movie. It's truly one of the best DCOMs out there. One of the best Halloween films out there. and it Really in general, like I know we commented on a couple things, but it has aged really well. Like there's nothing so obviously horrible about it or a ton of jokes that are just like now aged terribly. Like it really has held up.

I agree. Even the stuff that's like low res, like the makeup and costumes being so dumb and so cheap, I find really charming.

Yep. Up next, we're going to do finally wrapping up life with Derek. So we're going to cover the two final episodes and do our rankings. So make sure to tune into that one. If you enjoyed this episode, please, please, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple podcasts as well as please follow us on all of our social media, 90s Babies Nostalgia on YouTube and Instagram, spell out the word nineties. We're also on TikTok, but use the numbers there. Please, please, please comment, DM, we love talking with you all. And with that, we'll see you in the next one.

Stay weird. Bye.

Bye.

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